| SpikeHost says, Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to crosswalk.com Chat! My name is SpikeHost, and I’ll be your host this evening. Joining me on stage are TerriCamp, AppleHost, DaisyHost, and Yadah_Host. |
| SpikeHost says, Many of you have a copy of the New International Version of the Bible, often called the NIV for short; I have one. And many churches use the NIV for their pew Bibles; mine is one of them. |
| SpikeHost smiles. |
| SpikeHost says, Back in 1997, the International Bible Society, the translators of the NIV, and Zondervan, the publishers of the NIV, announced plans to revise the NIV to make it “gender accurate”. On May 27 of that year, twelve men, meeting at the headquarters of Focus on the Family in Colorado Springs, spoke out against this, so the project was shelved for a while. But the translators and publishers have revived the project, and a gender-accurate version of the NIV, to be called Today’s New International Version, or TNIV, is due to be published soon. And on February 7 of this year, eight of the twelve men who spoke out before did so again. Our special guest tonight is one of those eight. He is Senior Pastor of the Church of the Good Shepherd in Bloomington, Indiana, and a board member for the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it gives me great pleasure to introduce the Rev. Timothy B. Bayly. |
| madchatter asks, What are your biggest concerns regarding the TNIV? |
| Tim_Bayly says, Two things: First the breaking of the word by the men that met with us at Focus on the Family in ’97. Second, the direct changing of the actual words of Scripture out of a desire to be perceived as being sensitive to cultural pressures today. It’s kind of a highhanded action. |
| browjan asks, What does Zondervan mean when they say that the TNIV is “gender accurate” ? |
| Tim_Bayly says, It is begging the question by defining things… The question is if this translation is gender accurate and it isn’t so it is wrong. |
| browjan asks, Does the TNIV maintain masculine gender terms when the text is referring solely to men? |
| Tim_Bayly says, No, it doesn’t. A good example would be in the book of Acts where Paul is addressing the Athenian men in the areopagus. You can find that in Acts 17:22. It says in the Greek that Paul stood in the midst of the areopagus and said “Men of Athens.” But the TNIV says that Paul stood up and said, “People of Athens.” My objection to that is that all of the PhDs and marketing people and IBS people who decided to make that change have violated the Word of God by that change. But if I were to say what my second concern is, and it a much less significant concern, it is that they are not even being historically accurate because that’s not what Paul said. The Greek is andreo. That’s not the more inclusive masculine term anthropos. It’s the very direct word referring to men who have all of the physiological apparatus of men. The question we have to ask is “Who does the TNIV want to argue with in this verse?” Luke, who recorded Paul’s words… His exact words? The apostle Paul who used those words in the first place? The Athenians whose habit was to give over to man the job of being minister of exterior affairs in the areopagus, and woman min (The men were there because the women were with the children at home.) Or God whose fatherhood called the Athenians to live out this leadership in their lives as men? It seems to me as though the TNIV is flailing at all of the above… From God on down. |
| ibtrying2 asks, Why do you see a gender accurate translation as threatening when it would speak to seekers more profoundly than current translations? |
| Tim_Bayly says, Well of course to say I see it as threatening is a sophisticate ad homonym attack. Similar to people who calls sodomites to repent is only doing it because he is a homophobe. But to move on to the substance of the question. If in our effort to communicate to people we find ourselves embarrassed by some of God’s words and seek to hide them the problem is that we are idolaters and have made God and His word into our own image. God has the right to speak for himself and not be pressed into the mold of 21st century semantic habits. Let God be God and let His Word be His Word and not ours. |
| SpikeHost says, Chatmaster has a few announcements for us. |
Chatmaster shouts, Congratulations to ben25 and maxh who have been chosen to receive a FREE NKJV New Testament, courtesy of Prayer Warrior Ministries and crosswalk.com. Sign up for the Prayer Warrior Ministries prayer request email chain. Just send your email to prayerwarriorministries@hotmail.com with the word signup in the subject heading.” |
Chatmaster shouts, For more information about Pastor Tim Bayly and the TNIV, visit his website, http://www.keptthefaith.org” |
| ben25 asks, You say the TNIV does not retain masculine terms for males. What about Acts 1:21? |
| Tim_Bayly says, That’s because last time the NLT translated that as “those.” It’s good that they got that right this time… But the fact that they get ONE right when they refer to apostles and wrong elsewhere… I’m supposed to be happy with that? |
| maxh asks, Does gender in text determine gender in reality? If so, how does one deal with the Holy Spirit being referred as neuter? |
| Tim_Bayly says, Almost always gender markings of words have a referent. So gender is not extraneous… It has meaning. The fact that some places its meaning is obscured because the person referred to is the Holy Spirit doesn’t render gender as a meaningless aspect of the Greek and Hebrew of thousands and thousands of places. |
| browjan asks, When Zondervan makes the statement that “they have been committed to producing translations that are as accurate and faithful to the meaning of the Biblical writers, how do they determine what the Biblical writer meant? Can they determine what it meant to the Biblical writer without meeting the Biblical writer? |
| Tim_Bayly says, Yes, by meeting the Biblical writer’s very words. But of course that is what they choose in thousands of places NOT to do. If the Biblical writer, inspired by the Holy Spirit let’s remembers, actually wrote the Greek word IOUDAIOI (Jews) he meant Jews and not “Jewish leaders” which the TNIV often substitutes as does the NLT often. For instance look at John 19:12. Where we are told the Jews cried out against Jesus in the presence of Pilate. The TNIV changed it to the “Jewish leaders crying out shouting.” This is typical of their bodacious ness in thinking they can do a better job of saying what God really wanted to say by avoiding using the words that God actually inspired. Yes, it’s nasty for scripture to record that the Jewish religious leaders had their willing little helpers and to put it in the Bible as God inspired it makes us vulnerable to the accusation of anti-Semitism. Something any American wants to avoid today. But to change it is to delete a word that God himself inspired and it is idolatrous because we are remaking God and His revelation in our own pathetic image. |
| ibtrying2 asks, The members of the Council of Bible Translation are men and women of integrity, they worked long and hard and were dedicated to accuracy of the original words, why should Christians believe that your translations are more accurate than theirs? |
| Tim_Bayly says, The members of the Committee on Bible Translation have a million dollar foundation and a multi-million dollar corporation, Zondervan, and the vast reaches of Rupurt Murdock’s News Corp behind them. We have to keep all of this money and marketing in mind when we think about these specific individuals. Since you asked about “my” translation let me say that I stand to benefit from no translation of Scripture and have no translation of Scripture affiliated to me in any way. I am opposing the TNIV and the NLT because they have changed the Words of God. As for the personal integrity of the members of the committee on Bible Translation (CBT) that’s not what is at stake. It’s their work. This work is clearly a violation of the inspiration and authority of the Word of God. Had I made the mistakes that they’ve made I would hope that even my own wife would oppose me in it out of her love first for God and His Word but also for me. |
| SpikeHost says, We have two more winners! Chatmaster, if you please. |
Chatmaster shouts, Congratulations to exertwig and scaevola_g who have been chosen to receive a FREE NKJV New Testament, courtesy of Prayer Warrior Ministries and crosswalk.com. Sign up for the Prayer Warrior Ministries prayer request email chain. Just send your email to prayerwarriorministries@hotmail.com with the word signup in the subject heading.” |
Chatmaster shouts, For more information about Pastor Tim Bayly and the TNIV, visit his website, http://www.keptthefaith.org” |
| guest2740 asks, frednmonica say what’s the big deal, there’s lots of inaccurate Bibles, why pick on just this one? |
| Tim_Bayly says, The big deal is that incidental errors are a far cry from thousands of emendations to the text of Scripture, all of which are focused on silencing the patriarchy of God as it appears in human relationships and language. Such errors are anything but innocent. Rather, they are a part of the evil one’s attack upon the nature of God’s creation in the area of sexuality which defines our generation and culture. |
| ben25 asks, Most of TNIV translators are complementarian. If they had an agenda, wouldn’t it be the opposite of the one you accuse them of? How is it that conservative translators have a liberal agenda? |
| Tim_Bayly says, First, the one member of the CBT I know best, Gordon Fee, is anything but complementarian. Second, even those who are complementarian can desire to appear reasonable, gentle, sensitive, to those watching and can want the Word of God to appear the same. We all know what it is to send messages to people about our progressive views by the words we choose. That doesn’t necessarily mean that we are card-carrying supporters of their side of the battle. But it certainly can win us friends and cause us to have less speed bumps in the paths of our careers. |
| cruxhost asks, Just out of curiosity, which version of the Bible do you prefer for your own study? Is there any one in particular that you think is more accurate? |
| Tim_Bayly says, The NASB ’95. The updated edition that gets rid of the thees and thous. It is admitted by almost everybody that this Bible is the one that adheres most closely to the original Greek and Hebrew. However, there is a cost. It reads quite woodenly and at times you have to break out in a sweat to do the work that the NIV would not even cause you to notice. But it’s a small price to pay to see the words of God more closely as they were originally inspired. Having said that I would also admit that many versions of Scripture are valuable and not to be quibbled over. Including the ESV, the NIV, the KJV, and so on. |
| madchatter asks, What are the 5 biggest flaws in the TNIV? |
| Tim_Bayly says, First, that those who issued it broke their word by doing so. Christians are supposed to keep their word. Second, that many gender markings are removed or changed. Third, that a number of places where God inspired the word Jews are changed to the words Jewish leader or simply they. Those are the top 3 of my substantial concerns of the TNIV. If you are asking for specific verses I’ve given 2 that are indicative of hundreds. Namely Acts 17:22 with gender markings. And John 19:12 with race markings. (The word Jews.) |
| SpikeHost says, Chatmaster has more winners! |
Chatmaster shouts, Congratulations to cryl and browjan who have been chosen to receive a FREE NKJV New Testament, courtesy of Prayer Warrior Ministries and crosswalk.com. Sign up for the Prayer Warrior Ministries prayer request email chain. Just send your email to prayerwarriorministries@hotmail.com with the word signup in the subject heading.” |
Chatmaster shouts, For more information about Pastor Tim Bayly and the TNIV, visit his website, http://www.keptthefaith.org” |
| ben25 asks, How is your argument different from that of those who violently opposed the first English translations? (Keep in mind the KJV was accused of being driven by a political agenda of its own.) |
| Tim_Bayly says, Good question. I’m trying to get us to allow the woman in the pew to be able to read the actual words of God in her own language. It’s the TNIV that is trying to keep those words from the woman in the pew thinking that she is not smart enough to piece together what God was really trying to say. |
| ben25 asks, On your website, you say the TNIV hides the “sex-marking” (grammatical gender) of Greek words, distorting meaning. If so, the same is true for Bibles that use “he” for the Holy Spirit, since the “sex-marking” of the word for Spirit is neuter. Why don’t you say this? Is “sex-marking” significant to meaning only when you want it to be? |
| Tim_Bayly says, Because to refer to God the Holy Spirit as “it” communicates less truth than to refer to Him as “he.” We believe in a three person — not a three entity — God. |
| canmft asks, In much of today’s society, gender inclusivity has become essential and expected. How would defend your critique of this translation, to those who have come to believe that gender inclusive terminology is the correct usage of the English language? |
| Tim_Bayly says, Excellent question. The neutering of language in the interest of our feminist culture is not an innocent thing. As I said earlier it’s part of a larger attack upon the Fatherhood of God and it’s manifestation, it’s imprint, on His creation and Word. Battles like this always have language at their center. Choose a man’s words and you force his thoughts. The Fatherhood of God is so central to the Christian faith that to confess Christ is to confess Abba Father. Every time the human race is named Adam in the Hebrew Old Testament a world of theological truths is carried in its meaning. The human race is named by the father of that race, Adam. The federal headship of Adam — that in Adam we all died — is carried by the naming of the race Adam. When we hide or delete this we obscure truths at the center of our faith. So we have a choice, we can either signal our political correctness and cultural sensitivity using the text of Scripture to confess that faith OR we can use the text of Scripture to call our culture to every truth of Biblical faith. We cannot do both. |
| scaevola_g asks, Bible translation can be a complicated subject. Do you have any advice or resources for lay Christians interested in defending the accurate translation of God’s Word? |
| Tim_Bayly says, Yes, first read the Gospels and see how Jesus handled the Word of God and with what precision He submitted to its prophecies. Second, read the “Gender Neutral Bible Controversy” by Poythress and Grudem. Third, go look at the list of verses on our website at http://keptthefaith.org and see for yourself what is at stake. Fourth, pray and ask the Holy Spirit to give you a fear of God and a love for His Word. |
| Tim_Bayly says, In closing, I realize that some might look at this debate as a tempest in a teapot. What’s at stake here is one of the two doctrines that is central to our evangelical faith — the substitutionary atonement and the plenary verbal inspiration of Scripture. Make no mistake this division is a real one and behind it are competing worldviews. Even if we admit that many on the opposite side of this present controversy do not intend to promote the pagan feminist worldview. Yes, division and conflict within the Church are painful, but when has the Church grown in her doctrine and practice without such division? Take Galatians, for instance. Thanks for allowing me to be here. |
| Tim_Bayly bows gracefully. |
| SpikeHost says, Tim, it’s been a pleasure having you here tonight. Come and see us again soon! |
Chatmaster shouts, Join us on March 23 at 2 pm ET for our chat with Janet Parshall just after her radio show, Renewing the Heart.” |
Chatmaster shouts, On March 26 at 9 pm ET we’ll be chatting with Chris Rice and his friends from Rocketown Records.” |
| SpikeHost says, Good night everybody, and God bless! |
______________________________________________________
Who is Tim Bayly?
- Senior pastor of Church of the Good Shepherd, Bloomington, Indiana
- Current board member and former executive director of Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood http://www.cbmw.org
- One of the original twelve participants, authors, and signatories of the Colorado Springs Statement and Guidelines issued by Focus on the Family after our meeting on May 27, 1997 at Focus on the Family’s headquarters in Colorado Springs
- Principal author of the statement issued February 7, 2002, by eight of the twelve May 27, 1997 participants–the eight who were, and are, opposed to the TNIV’s changing of the sex-markings of Scripture (the names of all the men who signed this document are James Dobson, R. C. Sproul, Joel Belz, Vern Poythress, Charlie Jarvis, Wayne Grudem, John Piper, and Tim Bayly)
- Leader of http://keptthefaith.org
- Author of published articles on regarding the TNIV Bible and gender issues in the Scripture.